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    • #16739

      Please continue all future discussions about laser therapy here and please, if you’re trying to get ahold of someone specifically use the tagging option (type “@” then the person’s name) to get their attention.

    • #16771
      Marsha
      Participant

      @drandyhall

      Thank you for your message, Andy!  I am so sorry for the chaos and frustration you’re dealing with.  Once things settle down for you (and I totally mean this) I’d like to know more about your call to Dr. Cebek.  I send you beautiful thoughts and pray for God’s Blessings upon you.  💞🙏🦓🕊💞Marsha

      • #16859
        Steve Dragoo
        Participant

        Thank you, thank you, thank you, Charlene, for your hard-working efforts and dedication to this beloved forum(s)!!! I start laser therapy tomorrow… – Steve

        • #16891

          Such an honour to be in this role @steve-dragoo, thank you for your kind words! I am still working my butt off with the support of our tech team to figure out the errors on the forum following the update. We have a support ticket in place and are hoping the developers contact us this week about getting two main issues resolved: 1. having a reply box appear immediately after someone clicks “reply” to a topic and 2. getting posts organized in chronological order, eliminating any/all broken links and the need for moderator approval. Fingers crossed they get back to us soon!

          I am so eager to hear how laser therapy goes for you tomorrow! Did you decide to go with one of the chiropractors you’d already seen, or did you find someone new? I know you weren’t sure about the two you’d investigated for different reasons so curious to hear. Please let me know how it goes, I’ll be thinking of you!

          Charlene.

      • #16959
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Hi Marsha,

        Back to normal after 13 days.  Had some temporary and limited internet, but so glad AT&T finally came through!

        Anyway, Dr Cebek and I had a nice chat, he seems very interested in treating a lung condition and sees how photochemically it could be helpful.  We discussed treatment protocol and plan.  I think we are all on the same page.

        I had my son set up an IPF site on my office website you might find interesting.   Summit-chiropractic.com

        Hope to hear from you soon!

        Andy

        • #16979

          Welcome back @drandyhall, so glad your internet is up and running again, as I am sure you are too! Please take your time in replying to everyone though, I am sure you’ve been inundated with messages 🙂

          Just intercepting your reply to Marsha by tagging her ( @marshaharris ) as I know she will appreciate hearing from you.

          Thanks again for everything you do for this site!
          Cheers,
          Charlene.

        • #16986
          Andrew Hall DC
          Participant

          Thanks for the welcome back.  It really has been a frustrating last 13 days.  I had very limited internet, had limited data to use and I tried to just prioritize what I used it for. Had lots of doctors to get back to and that was my first priority.  Yes, have LOTS of catching up to do. Going to be a busy day on the computer.  I have lots to share with everyone.  I know PJ Kessler has posted and I would like to share what she sent me.  Great stuff!  I also got a personal email from her and she and her organization is flooded with protocol requests and etc.  She asked that people don’t do that as they don’t have the manpower to answer everyone’s questions.  But she is thrilled that there are so many human patients that are seeking laser as she has first hand seen what it has done with all the beloved Westies stricken with IPF.  Also, the protocol for dogs is different.  Look at a picture of the Westies and you can see how tiny they are compared to a human. I will address more on this hopefully today when I get caught up. But again, I will forward the links to all the articles she sent.

          Andy

        • #16995

          Hi @drandyhall,

          I can only imagine how frustrating it was for you to be offline for 13 days with limited internet usage! I would imagine the task of getting caught up might be a bit overwhelming for you. Was the delay in getting your internet back due to the sheer number of folks who likely needed their internet restored after the storm?

          I can completely understand PJ Kessler’s request regarding protocol questions and contacts. The amount of conversation that blew up on the forums, albeit all great discussion, was overwhelming for me at times to manage and can imagine others who may not have the resources to answer the questions, might have a hard time. Sounds great re: forwarding any links my way and if I can help spread the message widely about not overwhelming PJ with protocol requests, please don’t hesitate to ask. I can make it an overall forum request too. 🙂

          Take care and glad to have you back, but yes, please don’t overwhelm yourself with too much work responding to everyone. Pace yourself!

          Talk to you soon,
          Charlene.

        • #17124
          Marsha
          Participant

          @drandyhall @charlenemarshal

          YAY!! Great to see you are back, Dr. Andy!  You were missed by all. Thank you and Charlene for the many hours you spent trying to keep things moving in spite of all the crazy happenings of the past 13 days.  I hope you got some rest and are weighing in on the positive side of your respective IPF scales!

          I am happy to tell y’all I had my first laser treatment with Dr. Cebek last Friday and my second yesterday. He and his staff are wonderful!  I go again tomorrow morning.   Next week we are doing just one session on Friday as the Dr. will be out of town until then and we’re picking up again with 3 sessions the following week. Just one or two more things and then I will share the early changes I’ve experienced pretty much from the start of my treatment!  Sooo….Andy, I received test results today that I will mail to you and Dr. Cebek.  As I haven’t yet registered for the laser study yet, I will do so tomorrow.  Please advise of anything else I need to do.  Thanks!

          Now on to more good stuff: Dr. Cebek spends a fair amount of time (after his nurse, Karen, finishes working with the laser) applying accupressue up and down my cervical and thoracic spine.  I am in less pain when I leave each session than when  I walked in an hour before!  I have stayed out of bed during the day and in 4 out of 5 days, I have had more energy to get where I need to go and stay out more than 1.5 hours without having to go home due to pain, trouble breathing and low energy.  Of course, I continue to use my oxygen (at 4) and my rollater whenever I go outside of my apt.  Had a long day today with my first pulmonary rehab session and another dr. appt. as well.  Not feeling as well as I was earlier right now, so I’m ready to sleep and greet tomorrow morning with gratitude, hope, one cup of coffee and my third laser therapy treatment!  I’ll keep you posted… Blessings and hugs,

          Marsha 🙏🦓💞

        • #17145

          Hello @marshaharris,

          So nice to hear from you! I was wondering if you’d been offline because you’d been trying laser. I am so glad you found some support for this, and have been through a couple of treatments 🙂 I am so glad you’re also comfortable with the Dr. and his team, I think that is so important. It gave me goosebumps that you alluded to the fact that you might already be experiencing some positive changes? I’ll keep my fingers crossed that is the case!

          I missed Dr. Hall as well and so glad he is back, but I know has a lot of catching up to do. His son joined the forums too, we’re very lucky to have them both here. Thanks for your kind words, I haven’t had much downtime yet unfortunately but hopefully soon. I don’t have much planned for the weekend, so that will be nice.

          Please do keep us posted on how you make out with the additional laser treatments, and I am so glad you’re finding them beneficial so far. Sure wish we could have coffee in person together Marsha!

          Take care and thanks again for connecting back with me.
          Charlene.

        • #17172
          Marsha
          Participant

          Good morning, Charlene and Dr. Andy! @drandy Thank you for your encouraging posts….I always feel uplifted when I read them!  So true, Andy, about Pulmonary Rehab.  With the energy it takes for me to even get myself there, I usually feel like going right back home!  The potential benefit, however, is worth it.

          I will keep y’all in the loop and I so appreciate your kind interest to help.  Charlene, I’m about ready for that coffee you mentioned.  Meet you at the corner cafe in 15 min.??! Blessings,   Marsha                🙏🕊💞

           

           

           

           

           

        • #17185

          Wouldn’t that be amazing if we could grab coffee and chat in person @marshaharris? Maybe some day .. 🙂

          So glad you’re finding the forums, and the information shared beneficial. Do keep us posted on how you continue to do with the laser therapy. The sun is shining here today for you, Marsha. Wishing you nothing but the best always.

          Hugs,
          Charlene.

        • #17208
          Marsha
          Participant

          Happy Friday, Charlene! @charlene-marshall

          So, what would you like in your coffee?  (I’m pretending you’re seated across from me…!)  Thank you for your sweet and encouraging message yesterday.  I felt warm fuzzies as I read it…  I hope you will set aside a whole day this weekend for yourself…perhaps we can have coffee again before you leave for a 1.5 hr massage!

          Hugs right back atcha, Charlene…

          Marsha

           

           

           

        • #17229

          So glad I can be of help anytime @marshaharris! Happy Saturday – are you up to anything fun this weekend? As for my coffee, I am pretty boring and just enjoy a dark roast blend of coffee with some cream 🙂 How about you? Oh maybe someday we could all figure out a way to get together and meet in person…. I know I’d sure love that. For now, this site can act as something that connects us all. Sending much love to you!
          Charlene.

        • #17153
          Andrew Hall DC
          Participant

          Marsha,

          Wonderful!  So glad you feel some relief!  I found Dr Cebek to be a great guy and knew that once you got in there with he and his staff you would be comfortable. I could tell on the phone he was very caring.  We will all welcome news on how things go over the next few weeks, but for now just happy that things are going well and you are up and around.  It may take a while to get acclimated to the pulmonary rehab but I know that will be very helpful for you as well as everything else.

          Andy

    • #16843
      Jack Blum
      Participant

      My name is Jack Blum. In April of 2014, my VA primary Dr. heard crackling in my lungs and sent me for an xray. A month later he stated he thought I had IPF. Was sent to pulmonary at Phoenix VA Hospital. Had a lung biopsy in Oct 2014 and was verified by VA lab and Mayo Clinic that I had moderate to high levels of fibrosis. This all happened a month after the blowup about the Phoenix VA Hospital. I was told by the Chief of Staff of Pulmonology that I had Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis and had 2 to 5 years left and to go enjoy the time I had left.
      November 2014, Esbriet was approved by FDA, VA told me it would take them 3 years to get approval for use. I raised holy hexx, and it was sent to special committee, and thanks to their Chief of Staff, I am the first vet in Arizona to be approved for its use (on trial) in December 2014.
      In January 2015, I went to a private Doctor for a second opinion. He tested my O2 levels, and prescribed me to 2 lpm. at rest and 4 lpm. during exercise. I have been on O2, 24 -7 ever since.
      Through my Medicare Advantage Plan with Humana, I was accepted to be tested for lung transplant at St. Joseph Hospital in Phoenix. I was approved for lung transplant, but thanks to Esbriet and exercise and staying Positive, my PFT’s and Six Minute Walks have stayed relatively steady with slow decreases in lung function. I still do not need a lung transplant!
      Last month while doing my treadmill (3 times a week for a mile), on my second lap, my pulse Ox dropped to low 70’s. I had to stop and rest for about a minute and the try to continue. This happened every time. I went into a state of depression, and knew when you get worse with IPF, you go down fast.
      Pulmonary Fibrosis News sent me my weekly e-mail and it listed an article on Laser Therapy. I clicked on it and read the blog and found Dr. Halls website “ipflaserstudy.com” . I e-mailed with him, and he found a Class 4 laser about 100 miles away from me.
      I have had only three treatments, and decided to try the treadmill after not being on it for 2 weeks. For three days in a row, my pulse Ox dropped on the second lap, but only to the low 80’s and did not have to stop, just slow down to 2mph for 1 minute, then able to finish the mile at 2.5mph!
      The main reason for me telling this long drawn out story is to tell folks to not lose hope. Keep positive, do exercise, lose weight if overweight, stay progressive with your illness, and do not be afraid to try something if you think it will help. My transplant Doctors have not researched Laser, and could not comment. My VA Chief of Staff said go for it and keep him informed of my progress.
      Thanks so much to the VA and their doctors for providing me with Esbriet, the Pulmonary Fibrosis News and their articles, and Dr. Hall for coming up with Laser Therapy for IPF.
      Keep the faith,
      Jack Blum

    • #16863
      john styles
      Participant

      Update, I am still doing good on the laser treatment,  6th week. No side effects and improved saturation s and energy.  Correction needed on the Egyptian study, seemed I got the Sayeds confused but the study is real and encouraging but not as encouraging as Dr Hall study.

      • #16892

        Hi John,

        Thanks so much for circling back and letting us know how you’re doing with the laser therapy. Great to hear it is still going well for you! It seems as though Dr. Hall is getting the numbers needed for his study with IPF, which is fantastic. Thanks again for starting this topic thread, it has been so informative to many people!

        Take care,
        Charlene.

      • #16898
        Steve Dragoo
        Participant

        Hi Charlene – I am going to the one who has the best price and a K-laser class IV. He is farther away but I think I need to do this.  So I will go 3X for 3 weeks then 2x for 3 weeks and then once weekly until I leave. The first couple of weeks will depend on weather and the doctor’s availability but it will all work out.

        Success with WordPress and fixing the problems so it will give you more free time. Peace and safety – Steve

        • #16918

          Hi Steve,

          Oh, thanks so much on the update re: laser therapy and where you decided to go! I know you weren’t sure which facility or physician would be best for you, so I’m glad you are going to try one and I hope everything went well today. I also hope the weather cooperated for you. Hard to believe – we’re in for another freezing rain storm tonight and into tomorrow. I don’t ever remember three weeks of freezing rain, and possibly another “ice day” tomorrow. One more month until the official start of spring… I am holding onto that!

          Thanks for cheering me on with the WordPress solutions. I am hopeful we can make some progress, and then there will be less stress navigating the forums for everyone. Appreciate your kind words!

          Chat soon my friend,
          Charlene.

    • #16869
      PJ Kessler
      Participant

      Hi.

      I run a group for Westi Highland Terrier dogs that have Pulmonary fibrosis and have for over 4 years. My Westie Tyler,  16, was diagnosed over 4 years ago with IPF. Because he had such a terrific response,  I started a Westie lung disease/IPF group.  Our members dogs when treated with laser are doing fantastic.  Tyler should have lost his battle with IPF a long time ago but because of Class IV K lasers, he is still here today and doing great. Laser treatments are a miracle treatment for IPF. We also know that their/your environment needs to be controlled as well. Temperatures should be around 67-68 degrees year round and year round humidity should be 50-55%, HEPA air purifier is important,  I use the Winex 5500-2 models and keeping a constant airflow helps these dogs breathe better. Most of us have at least one Vornado air circulator (whole room air circulator) circulatiing the air in our homes.

      I have been in touch with Dr. Hall and shared a lot of detailed info with him.  We need to continue to share these treatment options and continue to work towards a cure. Please have Class IV laser treatments to help you live a much longer and better quality of life. I hope there will be a study done on how effective laser treatments are to treat lPF.  Thank you,  PJ

       

      • #16893

        Thank you for your words of wisdom and shared knowledge, @westie ! We appreciate everything you’re doing for all of us living with this cruel disease, including our 4-legged friends. Thank you for collaborating with Dr. Hall and for joining our forums to help facilitate this very hopeful discussion among our members.

        Warm regards,
        Charlene.

    • #16871
      PJ Kessler
      Participant

      Because the protocols and settings are completely different between dog’s and humans,  I think it would be to confusing to add any of you to our group.  I have send Dr. Hall.a lot of documents and suggest that you go through him to find a Chiropractor if you want to have laser treatments done.  Our group deals only with Veterinarians with laser and you need to gind a Chiropractor to do yours.

      Thank you!  PJ

    • #16875
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @westie Hi PJ, what group did you start and where? I would like to know more. Thanks – Steve

    • #16877
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hello Charlene and all the wonderful members who contribute to this forum.

      This is my first post and before continuing I would like to thank you Charlene for all your hard work and sympathetic care in managing this forum. I have been greatly helped over the past few months.

      I live in the UK although I am on a wonderful holiday in New Zealand at the moment. I will be interested to hear if there are any other members in UK?

      I was diagnosed with probable mild IPF last April, but think because of a persistent cough I may have had it for many years. At present my doctors regime is only 6 monthly tests. I am however taking a number of supplements including serrapeptase and Chinese herbs. Also, I am on mytochondrial therapy taking carnesine, which has improved my energy levels enormously.

      I am very interested in Dr Andy Hall’s Laser regime and would like to find a chiropractor in UK who can help me. My son is a chiropractor, but he is here in New Zealand whereas I live in Exeter in the South West of England. Despite on-line searching, I have failed to find one. So I am now emailing  the Uk distributors of K-Laser to see if they can help. Please, @DrAndyHall, or anyone else, can you help?

      May God bless is all as we battle this nasty disease.

      Thank you- David Swain

      • #16894

        Hi David,

        Thanks again for joining the forums, so glad you’re here. Although I wish it was not this cruel illness that brings us all together, this group is filled with such wonderful, supportive and kind people who truly “get it”. I look forward to learning more about you, and getting to know you throughout the forums! Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate them and it is such an honour to be in the role of forum moderator for this site. 🙂

        I am so jealous about your holiday in New Zealand – that is high on my travel ‘bucket list’. I went to Australia 3 times for my Masters Degree research but never jumped over to NZ unfortunately. Just gives me a reason to return to that beautiful part of the world someday. What has been your favourite part about NZ so far David?

        So glad to hear of these alternative therapies improving your energy levels. That is wonderful! I’ve heard lots of positives about Serrapeptase, and some about Chinese herbs although no one saying with certainty yet that they think it helps. How did you find the combination of herbs to use David, was it through an acupuncturist? I’ve not heard of the mytochondrial therapy – I’ll have to look more into this for sure, thanks for sharing David.

        I know poor @drandyhall has been inundated with requests for referrals, on top of losing power for nearly a week following a winter storm so I am sure he will be in touch with you as soon as he can. Glad you’re interested in this, it sounds like the more people we have for the study the better, more credible results it will yield. I’m sure Dr.Hall will reply as soon as he can! In the meantime, good thinking about emailing the distributors of K-Laser. I know another member Jean-Michel is near Paris, but no idea if that is anywhere close to you are – sorry my Europe geography isn’t very good. Might be worth connecting with him to see if he has found any chiropractors offering this?

        Take care David, and thanks again for writing!

        Enjoy your travels,
        Charlene

      • #16906
        Peter Goodwin
        Participant

        Hi David, You could try http://klaseruk.co.uk/patients/#find

        There looks to be a provider 30 miles or so from Exeter in South Moulton. Good luck.

        I believe this has already been mentioned but, anyone in the US looking for a K laser provider just type your location in at:

        https://www.k-laser.com/medical-professionals/find-a-provider

        • #16923

          Hi Peter,

          Thanks so much for your reply, were you intending this information to get to @bushan, who was hoping to find a class IV laser therapy in Toronto? I applied a tag here if so, that way Delio will be sure to see it. Thanks for sharing 🙂

          Charlene.

      • #16958
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Welcome to the forum David.  You will meet a lot of wonderful people here.  I finally have my internet back after 13 long days. Anyway, I did find a chiropractor in South Molton, but as I was scrolling up to your post I see that Jean-Michel beat me to it.

        Great to have you join us!

        Dr Andy Hall

    • #16901

      Hi @davidaswain,
      A little welcome message : we are neighbors … I live in Paris … also mild IPF diagnosed in January 2017.
      New Zealand is a trip that I hope to do someday, Enjoy 🙂

    • #16903
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hi @charlene-marshall, Lovely to hear back from you so quickly. New Zealand is indeed a beautiful country. The only downside for us in Uk is that it is so far away – two eleven and a half hour flights. I wondered how I would cope with the reduced oxygen levels during the flight, as I am not on O2. My hospital did a test and said I would be OK. Nevertheless, I it took me about a week to recover afterwards, mostly due to jet lag I hope

      My favoutite place in NZ, so far is the Bay of Islsnds, in North Island. Also Cape Reinga in the far north where you can see the waves where the Pacific meets the Tasman Sea. I do hope you will be able to make a visit.

      Regarding the Chinese herbs, this was a mixture mentionef in the forum about 6 months ago. I printed out a copy of the mixture and asked a Chinese herbalist to make it up for me. Sorry I can’t give more details until I get back home in a months time.

      Although Paris is only about 400km from where I live, it is in France. I have however received a welcome from my relatively near neighbour, Jean-Michel Fourrier.

      Keep up the good work 👍😊

      • #16919

        Hi David,

        Thanks so much for getting back to me!
        Ah yes, I remember the lengthy flights to the “lands down under” well. Although, I loved my time in Australia so much that I often said I’d be willing to do that flight regularly if it meant the beautiful scenery, warm weather and vacation time. I hope you’re soaking up as much of it as you can!

        I’m glad you managed okay with the oxygen levels on the plane, I remember worrying about this as well. I didn’t find jetlag as much when I got there as when I returned. It look forever to for me to bounce back once I returned to Canada. That said, everyone is different and I hope you’ve settled in nicely to the time change now 🙂

        Your descriptions of where you are sound amazing. I could spend all day watching the ocean waves crash with Tasman sea; I find waves so calming and therapeutic. I live to be by the ocean, and cannot wait to see the sea again when I travel to Hawaii in September, pending I can make it work financially and remain healthy enough to do so. It is good to have goals, right?

        Thanks for letting me know about the Chinese herbal mixture. I actually wondered if it was one that I posted the article about here on the forums, so that is good to know. Apologies if I have asked you this already, but do you think the mixture is helping? Always curious to hear what others think of various alternative therapies.

        Enjoy the rest of your time from NZ and dip your toes in the ocean for me. What I wouldn’t give to be able to do that at the moment!

        Thanks again for writing!
        Charlene.

    • #16904
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hello @jeanmichelf, Thanks for your welcome. Neighbours, but in different countries. Yes. try and make it to NZ, it’s eorth the effort if you are up to it. Our don moved here last March, so we are hoping to visit every 12 months, health permitting.

      All the best  😊

       

    • #16910
      Delio Pelliccione
      Participant

      Hi to Charlene and everyone who has offered so much to the discussion of class IV laser therapy.

      I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and have been trying to find a chiropractor who offers this laser treatment to no avail. Does any one know a chiropractor in the greater Toronto area who offers this treatment?

      Any help would be greatly appreciated.

      Delio

      • #16924

        Hi @bushan,

        Welcome from a fellow Canadian! Glad you’ve found our forums 🙂

        I am not really familiar with class IV laser therapy in general, just learning about it from all the amazing contributions to this topic thread. As a result, I haven’t heard from other Canadian members finding a chiropractor that offers this but I am sure there is someone somewhere. I’ll do a quick search for you of Ontario or the greater Toronto area and see if I can come with anything. Once @drandyhall gets his power back (they had a wicked winter storm and it knocked out power there, so I know he is probably busy trying to catch up) he might be able to help us search too. Please circle back if you find someone and I’ll do the same.

        Take care,
        Charlene.

      • #17034
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Hello Delio,

        Were you able to find a provider in Toronto?  I have helped others in that area find a provider and there are a LOT of them in the Toronto area.  Please let me know if you need help.

        Dr Andy Hall

    • #16963
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hi @PeterGoodwin

      Thanks for your response. I’ve checked out the website of the South Molton Chiropractor and will contact him tomorrow. I’m in New Zealand for the next month, so hope to set up my first consultation when I get back.

      Many thanks and take care

      David Swain

    • #16964
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hi @drandyhall,

      Thanks for getting back to me. I’ve checked out the website of the South Molton chiropractor who has just purchased a class IV laser. He is about 50km from me and the only one in the SouthWest of England.

      I will email him in the next day or so, as at present I’m on holiday for the next month in New Zealand. Should I ask him to contact you for treatment details, or can you let me have them to pass on.?

      Again many thanks and take care of yourself.

      David Swain

       

    • #16974
      Jack Blum
      Participant

      I now have had 6 laser treatments and am 1/2 way through the 3 a week treatments. Pulse ox slowly getting better on treadmill. Even with three inches of snow on the ground and 20 degree weather, I seem to be breathing easier. Another thing that I have noticed is that since I sleep on my side and have degenerated discs in my lower back, I always wake up with lower back pain and it takes half a minute before I can straighten up and walk ok after getting up.  Now for the last week, I wake up and have no back pain!

      I know it’s early in my treatments,but hard to not get excited. Every change so far has been positive.

      • #16983

        Hi Jack,

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience with laser therapy! It is always so helpful to hear personal testimonials, and so many of them have been positive which is wonderful news. I am so glad the pain in your back has been reduced as well, it sounds like this might be directly linked to the laser treatment you’re receiving? Otherwise it sure is a coincidence 🙂

        I hope the changes continue to be positive for you and I appreciate you sharing your experience!

        Warm regards,
        Charlene.

      • #16987
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Hello Jack,

        I’m thrilled that you are seeing some postive changes.  I wanted to say something about your back pain.  It is not at all unusual for other things to improve.  In the ‘laser community’ it is called “surprise benefits of laser therapy”.  I found that to be true very soon after providing laser therapy to patients. The reason is because laser is ‘systemic’.  Just one example, I treated patient for a knee problem and then they reported that the chronic elbow problem also improved. This has happened countless times in my office and most other offices as well. Heck, we’ll take all the improvement we can take, no matter what it is!  I really am happy for you Jack, just keep getting better!

        Andy

    • #16962
      David Swain
      Participant

      Hi @charlene-marshall,

      It’s lovely to hear from you again. Today, we had our first rain in a month since we came to NZ, which was very welcome to the locals. Otherwise sunshine and stunningly blue skies.

      Regarding the Chinese herbs, I haven’t noticed any significant improvement. It’s difficult to tell when I’m trying so many supplements etc. I’m due for another check with my consultant on 5th April when I return from NZ. Let’s see what the tests reveal.

      Take care of yourself.

      David

      • #16982

        Hi David,

        Likewise, thanks so much for writing and connecting with us all the way from NZ. It sounds like you’re having a wonderful trip! Send some of that warmth and blue skies here to Canada for me, it remains so chilly here but the sun is partially out today which is welcomed. I live for the sun, warm weather and especially the ocean: I feel so at peace when I am by the sea, and can’t wait to get there soon. I am planning a trip to Hawaii in September if I remain well enough to attend 🙂

        I’ll keep my fingers crossed that your upcoming test in April goes well for you! I know it is tough to tell how supplements are working, especially when compared with others. Hope you continue to feel well for the rest of your trip and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

        Charlene.

    • #16988
      Peter Goodwin
      Participant

      Hi everyone, I’m on a course of 16 Laser treatments spread over 8 weeks.

      Had my third session today. O2 at rest has been hovering around 92/3 this past few months, today it’s 95 !!

      Breathing not yet improved but I’ve had a stubborn cold this past 10 days which I don’t think has helped.

      Thanks to Dr Hall and especially John Styles who brought his laser therapy to our attention.

      • #16996

        Hello Peter,

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience with laser therapy, I am very happy for you! Wow! I know sometimes we wonder if this might be a bit of a placebo effect, but so many people have had positive experiences and testimonials with the laser therapy, it is hard not to get excited about it. I really hope your cold subsides and your breathing begins to improve as well.

        Thanks again for sharing, and yes I join you in thanking Dr. Hall and John for bringing this important topic into the forums.

        Take care,
        Charlene.

    • #17010
      john styles
      Participant

      That is great news from Peter and Jack, that is all I ever wanted was to let people know there is an alternative treatment that appears is working, and God bless Andy Hall for if he had not used the laser on himself we would not even be talking about the progress we are experiencing.  I can only hope more people do this and we have less deaths from this disease.

    • #17018

      Hi @caneelbay1, John,

      So nice to hear from you, as always and I hope you’re having a great weekend.

      Yes, I completely agree about the importance and thanks to Andy Hall for trying the laser on himself and getting the word out there for others to explore. But a huge thanks to you as well for bringing this conversation to our forums, and helping so many like Peter and Jack. The testimonials so far have been overwhelmingly positive and I am so happy for the patients who are trying this out – what an incredible gift it is to have hope again in a seemingly hopeless disease, at times. Thanks again for getting the word out, we’re very thankful for you!

      Take care,
      Charlene.

    • #17040
      john styles
      Participant

      That is it exactly, I could not have said it better, to have hope again. Well hears hoping, I start my seventh week of laser therapy, time will only tell but I am optimistic. The small increases in saturation and the feeling better are great and I have more energy. My walking outside is strange, prior to last December and in June of last year my saturation’s would actually go up two points and then stay above 90 when walking outside  then in December 2018 I needed portable oxygen to walk a mile on setting of 5 and they would still go down to 78 and I had to stop 6 times to give them time to go back up, now after laser I can walk 1 1/2 miles with no portable oxygen.  I do not think the laser cures any scaring but am hoping it stops the progression of the disease. I had my last cat scan in December 2018 and I will not do one until this December 2019.  I have new pulmonary function tests scheduled for early March hoping they are stable because I was steadily decreasing every 3 months.

      • #17066

        So fascinating John! I am so glad you’re finding the laser therapy beneficial, especially when it comes to your oxygen saturation. I agree with you, not a cure but hopefully this at least slows the progression of the disease and by the sounds of it, there is very good reason to be optimistic about that! Goodluck with your 7th week and please continue to keep us posted on any positive changes you notice 🙂

        I’m also really curious to hear how your PFTs go in early March, especially compared to the ones showing declines every three months. If you think of it, and would be comfortable circling back to let us know, I’d certainly be interested!

        Thanks again,
        Charlene.

    • #17044
      Delio Pelliccione
      Participant

      Hi @charlene-marshall and @drandyhall,

      Charlene, thanks for tagging the link from Peter Goodwin. Some of the practitioners on that list actually only have class 3b lasers; while most of the others who do have class 4 lasers are not familiar with using it for ipf.

      I would very much appreciate help from @drandyhall with Toronto practitioners familiar with laser therapy for ipf.

      Delio

      • #17048
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Hello Delio,

        As you may already know I am very particular about which lasers you should utilize. I feel that by far K-laser is the best due to the wavelengths and penetration of their lasers. Again, serious disease requires serious lasers.  In my search, there are about 21 k-laser providers in and around Toronto.  I suggest that you send me a private email and we can get this figured out for you. I can tell you, just like the vast majority of laser practioners, they have been trained mostly for musculoskeletal conditions, but if they are given the protocol they will know exactly what to do.  Send me a private email at   [email protected]   Also, go to my website, which is located at      summit-chiropractic.com    and click on IPF.  You will see an article I wrote on laser therapy and especially how it relates to lung diseases. At the end of the article are current treatent protocols. Print the article for the doctor.  It will be good review for the doctor as far as the photochemical processes that take place and the protocol. I’m always happy to answer any questions for you or the doctor.

        Dr Andy Hall

    • #17047
      john styles
      Participant

      That is the challenging part, once you find a chiropractor with a class 4 cold laser tell them this disease is terminal and show him or her the post from Dr Hall and ask them to treat you. Worked for me.  The treatment of lungs by laser is not an approved treatment.  You will have to appeal to the chiropractor and want to do the treatment.

    • #17049
      Peter Goodwin
      Participant

      Hi Dello

      When I found a local provider I eMailed  him a link to the original Laser Therapy thread so he knew what it was all about. It may also be useful to include Dr Halls own website page (  https://ipflaserstudy.com/laser-therapy/   ) where Dr Hall  explains in detail the therapy and provides other practitioners the exact protocols to work with.

      I guess the therapy we require isn’t what your average chiropractor gets asked for every day – or ever, so they may require a little more information. Good luck.

       

       

      • #17067

        Hi Peter,

        Thanks so much for connecting back regarding laser therapy service providers. I know your note was to Delio, so I am just intercepting quickly to tag him @bushan so he sees your reply 🙂 Are you also in Toronto, Peter? Was the Chiropractor’s response positive when it came to treating you with laser therapy, especially after showing him Dr. Halls site/write up? Just curious about the varying responses that might come from treatment providers.

        Thanks again and I hope you had a nice weekend.
        Charlene.

        • #17075
          Peter Goodwin
          Participant

          Hi Charlene

          No, I’m over in England. I searched the K Laser provider site for the UK and found an osteopath a couple of miles down the road, the next nearest was 50 miles away so I’m a tad fortunate. As luck would have it he knew a mutual acquaintance of Dr Hall’s and was able to confirm what was required.

          I went for my fourth session today. My osteopath tells me K Laser have now issued their own protocols for treatment of Pulmonary Fibrosis patients, so hopefully that should help when contacting K Laser providers.

        • #17090

          Oh that is wonderful news Peter! I am glad you found someone over on your side of the pond 🙂 You’re semi-neighbours to @jeanmichelf, and @davidaswain. I know not super close but closer than I am to them, so interesting to hear where everyone is from on the forums!

          Really glad to hear the update on protocols being issued when using lasers for the treatment of Pulmonary Fibrosis. We’re getting closer and closer to successfully slowing down this disease, and treating it. Glad you’ve done a few sessions, have you noticed much of a difference?

          Goodluck to you!
          Charlene.

        • #17102
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @petergoodwin Hi Peter – that sounds very exciting that K laser “has seen the light”! – pun intended… Please post or list where K laser has the protocol. Thanks – Steve

    • #17072
      Delio Pelliccione
      Participant

      Hi @drandyhall & @charlene-marshall,

      A huge thank-you for the incredibly quick follow-ups and advice! I will do my part, now.

      Thanks also to Peter Goodwin and John Styles. I am so hopeful for better health.

      Delio

    • #17084

      Hello Delio,

      No problem, I am so happy we’re able to help and provide a little bit of advice. Really grateful for the ability to have so much open dialogue here about laser therapy and hope you find it beneficial if you come across a location within your proximity. If you find a provider you’re happy with, please report back as I know some other members on the forums are from the Toronto area and might also benefit from this information.

      Thanks and best of luck!
      Charlene.

    • #17100
      leontis teryazos
      Participant

      Peter,

      I noticed on your Feb 25  post you say “My osteopath tells me K Laser have now issued their own protocols for treatment of Pulmonary Fibrosis patients”. Could you please share with us what these protocols are. My wife just had her 4th K Laser treatment using guidelines set by Dr. Hall and all is going well and noticing some general improvement. I am trying to monitor progress by having her do a 6 min walk and measuring distance and oxysat at end of walk. She does this using oxygen at 3L. This is a very easy way for all of you to monitor progress and perhaps would be interesting if we all share results.

       

      • #17117

        Hi Leontis,

        Thanks so much for connecting and welcome again to the PF forums! 🙂

        Sounds like you’re being amazing support for your wife, glad she has you to help her through this disease. Steve tagged Peter in his reply above, also hoping he will share the protocol for using laser therapy to treat IPF. I’ll keep my eyes open for it, and ensure it gets to you when it is posted.

        Take care,
        Charlene.

      • #17126
        Peter Goodwin
        Participant

        Hi Leontis and Steve

        When I spoke to my osteopath previously about this he suggested there was little difference between Dr Hall’s and K laser’s protocols other than the use of pulsing. He appeared to suggest that Dr Hall’s K Laser may not have the pulsing facility. He offered this to me but Dr Hall appears to have done OK without it so I didn’t bother.

        I Emailed him for the K Laser protocol and his reply was:

        “The guidance that K Laser has given is to use acute thoracic setting once anteriorly and once posteriorly, this gives a total of about 4800 – 5100 joules at an average power of 10 watt using the intense super pulse (ISP) feature of the K Laser.”

        I guess it’s interesting to know K laser’s thinking but I doubt whether one protocol is going to work fantastically better than any other version.

        Peter

         

    • #17143

      Thanks @petergoodwin for getting back to us regarding this protocol inquiry! I am sure @steve-dragoo and @let666 will be grateful. I appreciate your sharing 🙂

      Charlene.

    • #17328
      john styles
      Participant

      Here is the link to the newer Egyptian study published last year.  http://www.ejbronchology.eg.net/article.asp?issn=1687-8426;year=2018;volume=12;issue=3;spage=317;epage=322;aulast=Sayed

       

      • #17358

        Thanks John! I know some folks were really curious to read this, so thanks for taking the time to share/post it 🙂
        Charlene.

    • #17394
      john styles
      Participant

      To share an update with you, I had my pulmonary function test today, I had been declining all year with 4 pulmonary function tests done in last 12 months and each test showed decline. Today’s test showed no decline and showed  improvement on all .  good news. I have done 17 treatments, Last pulmonary function test done  in November and started laser January 17, I am very pleased and happy .  I lost my increased saturation’s outside two weeks ago, last week on Thursday my chiropractor changed the head on the laser from wide to narrow and the next day I lost my cough. My cough was real bad and now I hardly cough. What a wild adventure.

       

      • #17470

        Hi John,

        I am so happy to hear this update, and that your PFTs showed an improvement – how incredible is that! I can’t imagine this is a coincidence, which means the laser therapy must really be effective for you. That is wonderful! I’m curious: did your doctor/the tech ask what you’ve been doing to suddenly see a stabilization or improvement? If the doctors see it in test results from their patients, my hope is that someday soon they’ll start talking about laser therapy as an option. The more people who see this, and hopefully give it a try, the better!

        Thanks so much for sharing, I know others will draw a lot of hope from your story and update. Glad you’re doing so well. Keep up the amazing work! 🙂

        Charlene.

    • #17404
      john styles
      Participant

      When I started laser Jan 17 I was doing 3 times a week and then my saturation’s increased when doing outside walking to the point I did not need supplemental oxygen and I went to two times a week doing laser. Two weeks ago I developed a bad cough, worse then normal and was trying honey, ginger, etc,  but nothing gave me continued relief I also lost the increased saturation’s when walking to where I had to use my supplemental oxygen to do a mile and half walk, my saturation’s stayed the same when sitting or walking 100 feet.. When I discussed this with my chiropractor last Thursday he changed the head of the laser from wide to narrow, the next day my cough is gone, I still get a one cough now and then but no out of control cough, 99% better. I started back at 3 times a week this week doing laser.  What Andy Hall has said all along and what other people have reported is that the laser appears to stop the deterioration of the lungs. My lung breathing test was done by the same tech who did the last two tests, I had four tests last year and all values ( FVC, FEV1, FEF25-75, PEF ) all had deteriorated every visit last year, all these figures increased on this test done March 7.  I was hoping for stable results but was very pleased with the increase, at least no more deterioration. Time will tell where we go from here. This is especially important for me because I have liver disease fro cured Hep C three years ago, this means I do not qualify for a lung transplant without doing a liver transplant , (my liver is working fine) and can not take the drugs available.

      • #17471

        Hi John,

         

        Thanks so much for providing that clarification, as I was curious to what you meant when you said lost the outside saturations as well. It sounds like this was due to your cold/cough, and hopefully  now that the cough is gone (thanks to the change in your laser protocol!) it’ll improve again. I can’t imagine the feeling of seeing your PFTs not only being stable but improving, that is wonderful news! Will you try the walk outside again soon to see if the saturations outside hold, not requiring your supplemental oxygen again? Let us know when you’ve tried, but don’t push yourself too much as you don’t want your cold/cough to return. You all are amazing, being willing to share your success with laser here! The more success stories we have, the better 🙂

        Talk to you soon,
        Charlene.

    • #17406
      john styles
      Participant

      Hi Steve,  I use Alacin which is the extract in garlic that gives the benefits but only stronger without the taste and smell, I take it every day, costs $15 a bottle that lasts 3 months. I have not been sick since starting taking alacin Jan 2018.  Sounds like your mixture is working, may try it. I use honey and ginger tea.

       

    • #17414
      Jack Blum
      Participant

      I just finished my first month of Laser therapy at 3 times a week. I definitely feel better. After 1st month, my resting pulse ox has went from 94 – and H.R. in high 70’s to HR to 97 – and 68 HR.

      I use the treadmill 3 times a week and start at 2.7 mph and finish at 2.5 mph. Prior to treatments, I would have to stop after 1-1/2 laps as pulse ox was in lower 70’s, and rest for 2 minutes before finishing at 2.5 mph. Now I slow down to 2 mph for 1/2 lap and back up to 2.5 mph. No more stopping to rest!

      After 1st week of laser, at 1-1/2 laps, P.O. was at 83 and H.R. at 130. Now P.O. at 83, but H.R. is at 113.

      Now after 1 month at finish of mile, P.O. still at 84, but H.R. 110 (down 3 points).

      These changes, although maybe small, are all improvements, instead of getting worse.

      I am looking forward to 2nd month @ 2 treatments per week. No function tests till June, but will keep you posted. – Jack

      • #17419
        Steve Dragoo
        Participant

        @caneelbay!

        Hey John – you can add some fresh red onion too and rotate your different concoctions even go 3X daily when sick.

        I had a laser treatment today and shared your previous post with him.  He is onboard and would like to know your doctor’s name. Is your doc in FL? Thanks – Steve

        • #17424
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @jackblum

          Hey Jack – awesome results.  I am experiencing similar results and about to start week two of 3X treatments.  Initially, we started with the wrong protocol because some K-lasers are preset w specific programs w no manual option. Once I asked about the protocol and went to Dr. Hall as was good.

          Steve.

        • #17473

          I am so glad they were willing and able to adjust the protocol for you Steve, and that you’re happy with the laser treatments now. I know this was really important for you to try! 🙂

          Enjoy your day, and thanks as always for being so supportive and encouraging to all of our members!
          Charlene.

      • #17421
        Steve Dragoo
        Participant

        @caneelbay1,
        Hey John – you can add some fresh red onion too and rotate your different concoctions even go 3X daily when sick.  I had a laser treatment today and shared your previous post with him.  He is onboard and would like to know your doctor’s name. Is your doc in FL? Thanks – Steve

        • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Charlene Marshall. Reason: formatting
      • #17466
        Steve Dragoo
        Participant

        @caneelbay1

        Hi John – The Philippines we use a strong lemon that looks like a small lime called calamansi (or calamondin) – I like it a lot better than lemon/lime and it is more powerful.  Glad you know about the allicin in garlic.
        Kindly send your doctor’s name and contact info so I can share it with mine.  This could lead to some interesting discoveries.  Maybe Andy would be interested in starting a doctor’s panel – that could definitely help get the word out.  I am sending my doc marketing idea that will help him get more patients over time and starting a panel could really ramp up that benefit to more w IPF, ILD etc. Thanks – Steve

        • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Charlene Marshall. Reason: formatting
      • #17472

        Hi Jack,

        This is wonderful news, thank you so much for sharing your update with us after the first full month of laser. I am so hopeful that this seems to be working well for so many folks, and your numbers definitely show an improvement. You’re right – any small improvement is a “win” in my books, so I am thrilled for you.

        Obviously it is important for our saturations to improve, but even the HR numbers you showed declined and there is something to be said about our hearts not working too hard despite having poor lungs. That is great news!

        Kudos to you for also using the treadmill so regularly. While I know it is important, it is not always an easy task so good for you! Looking forward to hearing about your PFTs in June and hope the second month of laser therapy go well for you.

        Cheers,
        Charlene.

      • #17516
        leontis teryazos
        Participant

        @jackblum

        Jack,

        I do not understand what you meant by results you posted on March 8 that say below. Can you please explain in more simple terms what was your oxysat and hear rate before treatments and after the first month.

        “I just finished my first month of Laser therapy at 3 times a week. I definitely feel better. After 1st month, my resting pulse ox has went from 94 – and H.R. in high 70’s to HR to 97 – and 68 HR.”

    • #17467
      john styles
      Participant

      I feel like were on wagon train live. We have Steve, Jack and myself doing laser with Andy Hall as the guide. I guess you can tell I like westerns but this is real pioneering, setting out on our own to get treatment. I hope everyone who tries laser posts results,  good or bad so we all get a good grasp of the benefits.  Some increase in saturation and stable lung function tests will be the goal.

    • #17491

      Completely agree with you both @caneelbay1 and @steve-dragoo… pioneers for sure! So many folks in addition to you both, and Jack that are finding the laser therapy beneficial. I can think of about 6 members who have written to us and explained the benefits for this type of therapy, even small gains are important to note at this point. Now, I wonder if it is a matter of figuring out how to compile this information. I wonder if @drandyhall has an idea of what might be most helpful in terms of noting patient success stories/experiences with laser? I like your idea of a forum specific to this too Steve, keep me posted on the idea/evolution of that and how I might be able to help when it comes to modifying the site to give us a good platform for this. I’ll run it by BioNews first, but can’t imagine this being an issue if we don’t endorse anything but instead just share experiences with others!

      You’re both amazing, thanks for the dedication to this site and sharing the benefits of laser with those who might need it. Take good care and let me know how I can be of most help as your ideas continue to evolve…

      Charlene.

      • #17495
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Hi Charlene and everyone,

        Yes, we need to document all the changes patients are experiencing with laser therapy.  This is why we are doing a study on laser for lung conditions.  But the only way it will really happen is if patients get involved with the study. Otherwise, all we really have is scattered comments of how it helped (or not).  So, we are enrolling patients in the study and will have ‘baselines’ measured on each patient, and keep track of the changes using laser therapy using subsequent PFT’s and CT scans.  It really is a huge undertaking, but I’m up for it.

        We can’t wait 10-15 years for someone else like the NIH to do this.  At this time, they have no interest.  In the meantime thousands of patients are dying.  So, what’s in it for the patient to get involved?  Number one is that they may find like so many others including myself that laser therapy can be very beneficial for them.  They can also know that they will be helping other lung disease patients both present and future of an alternative treatment that may improve the quality of life and perhaps prolong the life of those patients.  I believe thats HUGE!  We are all stuck with these diseases whether we like it or not, and for the minimal amount of effort sending copies of the PFT and CT reports this can be a really big deal.  All the patients that get involved truly are pioneers, and eventually the little bit of effort by them could help alleviate tremendous suffering by lung patients.  Pesonally, I feel a moral responsibility to be involved with a study.

        I wish the study was a full-blown Clinical Trial, but it’s not.  Those cost a huge amount of money, money that I don’t have.  This study is a ‘preliminary’ study to help convince the NIH or others to finally do a large, formal Clinical Trial depending on results.  But I realized a couple years ago, with all the reports of patients that improved with laser for their IPF/lung fibrosis that this just CAN’T be co-incidence.

        I would love to have a forum with all the doctors also.  I am daily on the phone or email with doctors.  The cool thing is that with them having understanding of what laser therapy does, they are excited about the prospects.  One of the comments I hear from them all the time is “I see no reason why laser therapy wouldn’t work, why hasn’t anyone thought of this before?”  There is a lot of excitement with the treating doctors, and it makes me feel good that so many want to be involved and are caring and compassionate.

        • #17504

          Hi Dr. Hall,

          Nice to hear from you, thanks for giving us some of your precious time this morning as I know you’ve been very busy with people inquiring about laser from all over the world!

          Thank you for the reminder about the study for laser on patients with IPF, I’d forgotten that this initiative was already underway and such a great way to determine the data we need to compile success stories. I agree, it is really important for people to give involved regarding this, and they can from anywhere in the world, right Andy? Its just a matter of getting the data to you, or do they have to be enrolled from a location geographically close to you? I agree with you, that the benefits just can’t be co-incidental! Starting somewhere is important, especially for bigger agencies to pick it up and complete full clinical trials, like the NIH. We’re so thankful you’re willing to identify that ‘somewhere’ by starting this study 🙂

          I know Steve is still thinking about the best way to encourage physicians to use this site, and then I can create the platform for it if we decide to go ahead. It would be cool to have everyone in the same area discussing protocols, etc. and hopefully save you a bit of time! I know lots of people have been connecting with you, so maybe a forum where information could be posted might lessen the workload on you too. Just a thought!

          Enjoy your Saturday!
          Charlene.

        • #17508
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @drandyhall – Well said, Andy.  As a marketer, I see ways to really increase exposure and bring in new eyes and minds.  Dr. Harrington should be involved as this will eventually lead to more sales of the K-laser. So I will work on some ideas for this and send them to Charlene and you and anyone else that has a doctor they want to bring in and how we might go about that as patients w the lung disease. If you have a list of doctors and want to share it with me privately we can go over what it might look like to get them involved.  Charelene should be kept in the loop too… – Steve

        • #17510
          Andrew Hall DC
          Participant

          Hi Steve,

          I had not given any thought to a group dedicated to doctors.  But sounds like an awesome idea.  I don’t have a ‘list of doctors’ but I do have lots of contacts of the doctors that have reached out to me. And there’s a bunch!  I would love some help getting this done.  I have to tell you though, that right now I seem to have a full plate.  Sometimes I don’t feel like I can keep up, I’m doing a juggling act but I don’t want to drop the ball…..

          I’ll work on a list though……

          Andy

        • #17512
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @Charlene-Marshall – exactly my thought too.  One general location for posted protocols, maybe FAQ’s and discussion board – save Andy and other doctors a lot of time… Steve

        • #17514
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @drandyhall

          Hey Andy – I understand juggling and hope to prioritize someday soon – kidding I do that a lot and learned I had to in order to survive running 3 corporations simultaneously and a 4-state chapter of  American Telemarketing Association back in the day.

          The panel/forum idea will take a while to formulate but if you have a list or someone who can put it on an excel spreadsheet, I can post it on Google Docs and give you and Charlene access to see progress on it once we decide what to do.

          Thank you for being the one who has started this by your brave decision to self treat a few years ago. What I really enjoyed about starting a company was watching it take on a life of its own.  Talk soon… – Steve

        • #17534

          Thanks so much for being so invested in helping us with this @steve-dragoo! I know it’ll take some time to formulate a plan, and then decide how best to move forward, keeping the work Dr. Hall has done in mind too. I am open to learning how we might be able to use the forums as a platform to help with this task, but whatever is easiest for everyone.

          This topic thread is now also getting a bit too big for my liking. I really worry when topic threads get so large, as it takes time for people to sift through and find replies. For folks who aren’t too familiar with the site, I worry that they’ll get tired of trying to track replies. Maybe we could continue dialogue about this through a message thread with @drandyhall for now? I may have to start a new topic for Laser Therapy Part III 🙂

          Let me know your thoughts, and I’m just about to spend time catching up on the dialogue back and forth between you two, to see if there is anything else I can do to help at the moment or wait for further ideas/thoughts from you both…

          Cheers,
          Charlene.

        • #17515
          Andrew Hall DC
          Participant

          Hi again Charlene,

          Yes, it’s amazing that patients and doctors alike are contacting me from everywhere.  All over Europe, the UK, Africa, S. America, Australia, Canada to name a few. I had another conversation this morning with a gentlman from the Netherlands, he/they are considering a traveling laser therapy provider for lung patients and has lots of questions regarding the ‘perfect laser and perfect dose’.  And like the Disney song, “it’s a small world after all”, no one is excluded from the study, there are no geographical boundaries.  These diseases affect people all over the globe.

          I wanted to tell you about the meeting yesterday.  I drove the nearly 3 hours to Sacramento and met with Dr McGinnis and spent a good part of the day with him. It’s funny that many years ago I intoduced him to laser therapy.  He went on to become one of the top Class IV experts especially in regards to modulation/frequencies.  He has credentialled doctors all over the western US and Canada.  He is consulted by doctors the world over, and he ‘beta tests’ new lasers going on the market by K-laser, in fact had one at his office for a month. So cool to check it out.  Very awesome piece of equipment.  We had long discussions about the frequencies we need specifically for IPF/lung fibrosis.  Those frequencies have all gone into one of his lasers.  We are not done, as we need more specific frequencies for limiting fibroblast formation.  But frequencies for inflammation, alveolar healing, microcirculation, stabilization of cell membrane, oxygenation, lymphatic stimulation etc are already into the laser.  We are getting close, but not quite there yet. The other 2 top Class IV experts are not physically near by, and we do have some logistic issues. ,

          Dr McGinnis  can relate to deadly diseases.  Several years ago he was diagnosed with throat cancer and has been looked in the eye by his oncologist and said that he may not survive.  However he is doing well though he speaks with an artificial voicebox installed in his throat. But he continues to work.  He is passionate about laser therapy and is a very compassionate doctor.  During our discussions he said “Andy, you do know that what we are doing today can very well prolong tens of thousands of lives later”.  I said, yeah, I agree….

          Dr McGinnis used the updated but ‘not completed’ laser on me.  I have to say that for the first time after a laser treatment, my chest felt ‘light’ and I had no cough for a couple hours.  Now, could have been my imagination or wishful thinking, but I don’t think so. We are very close to having a final product, but we are just not there yet.  I for one can’t wait!

           

        • #17509
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @Charlene-Marshall

          Hi Charlene – Yes Andy should be a major part of this panel. If it is to work it will take the open efforts of all having success and sharing their doctor’s contact information.  I can eventually have a simple sharing mechanism for these new doctors and be an initial contact.  This started with John saying pioneer and my doctor wanting to talk to John’s doctor @caneelbay1.  This concept can grow legs far beyond anything we have thought of here so far. – Steve

        • #17517
          Steve Dragoo
          Participant

          @drandyhall – great news Andy.  It would be good to share the protocol specifics as my doctor is wanting more info and wants to connect with other doctors here and elsewhere that are having success with a more specific laser treatment.  I would like so much to hear about it too because I see a grassroots possibility and panel here and of course I want the most accurate protocols available.  We are at the right place at the right time… Steve

        • #17518
          Andrew Hall DC
          Participant

          Yeah Steve,

          We are soooooo close to being done.  Has taken quite a while, but it’s important that it be done right.  When we have a consensus of all 4 of us,  we will release the protocol, get the word out, etc.

          Also, when the protocols are released, we discussed explaining the rationale for each frequency.  I think you will be impressed. It will also be a great thing for all the treating doctors to know exactly why these particular frequencies are being used and the importance of each one.

          Andy

        • #17536

          Sounds absolutely amazing Dr. Hall, what wonderful work you’re doing on behalf of so many now and as Dr. McGinnis said, for the tens and thousands of lives in the future…. wonderful! So glad you have networked with so many folks who are interested in learning more about laser, especially in their areas all over the world. So exciting!

          I am getting a little lost @steve-dragoo on what we’re trying to do/organize, simply because this thread is getting too big. Do you mind sending me a DM/email about it, so I can get caught up to speed? This forum alone had 16 replies to it today and with the lack of organization due to the WP updates (and probably due to how tired I am too ;)) I am having a bit of a hard time catching up. I am really eager to hear though, as I see you and @drandyhall have been having some great discussions!

          Cheers,
          Charlene.

    • #17553
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @budhenry –  Posting on this board can be tricky. If you type in Word or other and cut and paste it seems to post a lot of the formatting characters in your post.

      No potentially fatal disease is easy for that person or family and clinical trials by their nature are unproven.  That’s one of the reasons I like this forum so much.  There are lots of good ideas and deeply expressed thoughts and I know here, as in other places there are the silent ones who benefit from just reading not necessarily commenting. To them, I hope our conversations bring some peace and maybe even hope to know they are not alone.

      You miss the point, there are a lot of unapproved methodologies that help heal better than chemo/radiation (these don’t heal they generally destroy- possible exceptions noted) without the damage but they are not allowed in USA – at least not yet. It will typically take a grassroots lawsuit to allow them and that is a long and arduous process.  So if the K-laser helps, then people want information. If the K-laser doesn’t work people want information. If we are at the beginning of such an event like the journey “The Truth about Cancer” has been on the past several years, then people will want information, not suppression or vague criticism of the unknown – that sounds like it is based in fear and ends in a quagmire too easily. You should do some international research on different color spectrum usage of lasers. It is at least provocative.

    • #17559
      john styles
      Participant

      I have come to beleive there are different types of people in this world. Me and my wife when seeing someone ask for food on the side of the road want to help but do not want to contribute to alcoholism or drug addiction so we give the people who are on the side of the road a bag with a fast food gift card and new pair of socks and water. Now we have a new member ” Bud Henry” I think he would run these people over if given the chance. I will pray he has changed.  The whole idea of posting about laser is to here from other people that may try laser so we can learn of the long term effects. Bud is only going to be negative and tell us why it will not work. Maybe he has a issues. Bud drove the people on different website to create a facebook closed site for laser therapy and the site is growing daily.

      • #17562

        Hi John,

        Thanks for sharing, and I didn’t know about the social media platform that Bud is part of. I do want our site to remain welcoming to everyone, and encourage respectful dialogue but now that I am aware of other social media issues, I will be monitoring his activity very closely. I agree with you regarding all of us just sharing information about laser in the hopes that it will be effective and informative in making choices about care for patients who have IPF. You have done a good thing here, by opening up the dialogue, please don’t think otherwise 🙂

        Talk to you soon – I’m just about to reply to your DMs.
        Charlene.

    • #17571
      Jack Blum
      Participant

      Hi Leontis Teryazos,

      I wanted to answer your question about stats prior to Laser treatment. My first post on Laser 2 was on February 17th and explains my oncoming of IPF a little. The month before I started Laser therapy (January),

      all of a sudden the bottom started to drop out on my pulse ox and heart rate. It had been steady for over a year of treadmill for a mile at 2.7 mph. In January, after 1-1/2 laps, my pulse ox was dropping to 72 or 73 and my heart rate was going up to over 130. I would have to stop for over 2 minutes before I felt up to finishing at 2 to 2.4 mph.

      I got totally depressed because just walking out to my shop, about 100 feet from house, my pulse ox would drop to 75 and heart rate went up. I quit treadmill all together for about 2 weeks. Felt the bottom was dropping out and lung transplant was just around the corner. I have been approved for lung transplant, but DO NOT wish to have one if can be avoided.

      February 2nd, I had my first laser treatment. After 1 month of 3 times a week treatments, my treadmill results are as follows.

      Pulse ox 83 after 1-1/2 laps and heart rate 113 at 2.7 mph. Slowed down treadmill to 2 mph for 1/2 a lap, then finish the mile at 2.5 mph. At the end my pulse ox is 86 and heart rate 113.

      I hope I explained that to where folks understand. If you pulse ox ever drops into low 70’s and heart rate up to 130’s with shortness of breath, it is not a pleasant experience.

      If you have any more questions, I will be happy to answer them.

      Jack Blum

      • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Charlene Marshall. Reason: formatting
      • #17580

        Hi Jack,

        Thank you so much for your thorough reply to Leonitis. I know it will be helpful, and your post was very informative for me as well – I am thrilled to hear of the gains you’re making with laser therapy, that is wonderful news. You must be happy as well? Any gains, big or small, are just that… gains and are certainly welcome 🙂

        So glad you have been able to re-initiate your time on the treadmill again, and are seeing this improvement. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that the trend continues upwards! Wishing you nothing but the very best, and thanks again for writing…

        Charlene.

    • #17569
      Kristina grilo
      Participant

      Hello everyone…..before starting laser theraly, my oxygen level was at 94, after 7 treatments with laser my oxygen is at 97 and 98. I consider that an improvement . Also, I’m not so out of breath and I also feel better. Placebo effect? I don’t think so. I have not gone to a pulmonologist to do a lung test, still waiting on that, but I FEEL BETTER , so, Mr. Budrenry, put that in your pipe and smoke it. My gosh, this budhenry guy is as negative as it gets, he’s the reason I left the inspire forums and came over here, and now here he is spreading his poison here as well,  unbelievable, lol.

      • #17582

        Hi Kristina,

        Thanks so much for writing to us and sharing some of your experiences with laser therapy. I am thrilled to hear of your improvement, any gains are a bonus for us, aren’t they? I would also consider an 02 increased from 94 to 97/98 an improvement, this is wonderful for you! I am really glad you simply feel better, that is also just as important … no one is claiming this treatment is going to cure our disease, but it is important that we feel better. Really glad you shared this, thank you.

        I have removed Bud from our site. There is a few different folks who told me that he is the same individual that caused havoc in other social media platforms, making people leave or feel uncomfortable. I don’t tolerate disrespect, and we tried to encourage him to be kind on the site but he wasn’t so I’ve removed him. Glad you’ve found this community, feel free to write anytime. You are always welcome here 🙂

        Charlene.

      • #17584
        Andrew Hall DC
        Participant

        Kristina,

        We are THRILLED  for you!!!   Feels great to be going in the right direction doesn’t it!

        Don’t worry about budhenry, he has issues, but it is too bad he basically ‘killed’ the Inspire site.  Very sad…

        • #17593

          Couldn’t have said it better myself @drandyhall. I’ve removed Mr. Bud Henry from our site, after learning how much difficulty he caused in other social media/online platforms, we do not need that here. I’ve captured his IP address as well in case he chooses to resign up under an alias. I’ll tolerate a lot of things, but disrespect is not something I am willing to have on our site so he has been removed. Thank you as always for your kind words 🙂

          So glad Kristina is feeling the benefits of laser therapy as well.
          warm regards,
          Charlene.

    • #17581

      Thanks so much for your thorough reply, Dr. Hall! As always, your posts are very genuine and informative, I was glad to read your reply to Barry as well. Sometimes we have hold this really good thing that is seemingly beneficial for so many, that we don’t want to accept that it just may not work for some people but you’re right, that is the reality. Hopefully it doesn’t occur, but it is very wise to keep this a possibility in our minds so thank you for reminding folks of this. So appreciate all you do for us, and the dedication you continue to offer patients all over the world, we’re very grateful.

      Keep up the amazing work!
      Charlene.

    • #17592

      Hi @let666,

      Thanks for this post, and connecting with Dr. Hall.

      I had to edit your post significantly due to formatting issues, please don’t copy and paste in future if you can as the format gets lost entirely and I have to edit the post. I don’t know if I even captured what you were trying to say to Dr. Hall, as the formatting took so long to work through … truly sorry in advance if I cut off information in your post.

      Thanks,
      Charlene.

    • #17278
      Andrew Hall DC
      Participant

      Hi Barry!

      I did some checking to see if I could locate the Egyptian study on COPD.  Weird it just disappeared.  However, while doing a new search for it I did come accross another Egyptian study that is actually even more impressive. Realize that the Egyptian study on COPD had to do with laser acupuncture and not directly using laser into the lungs, impressive though as all the patients improved using the 6 minute walk test.  The other study I found again was about laser acupuncture for a variety of chronic lung diseases, including interstitial lung disease, COPD, asthma, and bronhiectasis.  The name of the study is: Role of laser acupunture in chroinc respiratory diseases. Again, the results for all of these chronic lung diseases had significant improvement compared to a control group.  This study can be found at:

      https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ejcdt.2014.06.012

      So glad you are getting started with laser therapy Barry!

      Andy

    • #17395
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @caneelbay1

      John – that’s great news! I have had several treatments but initially, we were using the wrong protocol.  Looking forward to similar results.

      What is “I lost my increased saturation’s outside two weeks ago”?

      Keep it up!

      Thanks – Steve

    • #17405
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @caneelbay1

      Hey John – thanks for the update, very valuable material.

      When I get a cold I take 2x daily lemon/lime w a little water smashed garlic rested for 15 minutes and either blend or chop garlic and put in the juice.  Also, add a little real honey.  This is called Russian penicillin and it is effective in reducing the strength and length of the cold.  Actually, have lemon/lime w honey every morning and a fresh smashed rested garlic clove a couple of times a week.  Until 2 weeks ago, I have not had a cold in 3 or 4 years and it was not too bad and lasted about 5 days. Serrapeptase helped too. – Steve

    • #17468
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @caneelbay1

      Hi John – yes pioneers.  Was thinking about that earlier today and realized we have a massive opportunity.

      We need to start a panel with Andy your doctor, mine and Dr. Harrington to explore ways to get the word out to the public and western medicine – in addition to the abstract Andy is working. I am helping my doctor get more exposure with a variety of suggestions.  Since I have been in marketing and sales 36 years there is a lot I hope to share with the panel.  This will be a different approach to reach more people affected. So I’ll work on this a while.

      But in the meantime send me your doctor’s contact info, it starts there between him/her and my doctor. Steve

       

    • #17519
      leontis teryazos
      Participant

      Dr. Hall,

      Is laser acupuncture something we should consider in addition to laser therapy?

      I took a look at the Egyptian study link results you mention and see in the 6 MWT they were only covering a distance of 30 meters before the treatment. Is that correct as sounds extremely low for 6 min?

      My wife, who has severe IPF was doing 240 meters before starting treatments. By the way she is up to 340 meters after 7 treatments, although all this is with oxygen.

       

       

       

       

      • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Charlene Marshall. Reason: formatting
    • #17524
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @drandyhall @Charlene-Marshall Hi Charlene – adding you to this post.  Maybe you will us to go offline with this conversation?

      Hi Andy – that sounds really good. I know many new to the K-laser idea will want that great info as mine is asking questions I don’t know how to answer. So he does want to talk to John’s doctor and maybe others.

      So I will create an introduction letter to doctors and then a panel/forum intro letter for Charlene and you to advise me, then we need a doctor’s list for me to start outreach to them.  We should concentrate on K-laser users first. Include veterinarians? I would use one if I had not been accepted by Dr. Hundley.

      Add your thoughts too…  Thanks – Steve

    • #17547
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @Charlene-Marshall

      Hi Charlene – thank you for keeping these forums open for discussion. I know somewhere this newsletter has a link to all known clinical trials around the world and many times these trials start with induced IPF in lab mice/rats. It would be interesting if we can get to that stage with a class IV laser.  Of course it is useful to have scientifically proven data at our fingertips and there is a lot of research in countries outside of the USA regards lasers and other useful medical solutions where big pharma is not pulling as many financial strings.

      I can’t imagine how some lab or other group came to the conclusion that wiping out the immune system and only killing the daughter cells in cancer could be called a success.  Maybe that’s why it’s called remision not cure.

      So here’s to the poison of out choice. Cheers! Mine is remaining positive and helpful and curious and investigative as long as I can.

      Thank you and all who contribute – good, bad, or indifferent. – Steve

    • #17523
      Andrew Hall DC
      Participant

      Hi Leontis,

      I didn’t see in the study of only covering 30 meters before the 6 mwt.  I may have missed it somewhere.  I did see where there was no warm-up before the test.  Maybe we aren’t looking at the same Egyptian study.  The link I recently posted was for the study “Role of laser acupuncture in chronic respiratory diseases”.  Published in 2014.  The good thing with this study is that it wasn’t just for COPD in the other study that John referred us to, but for Asthma, COPD, bronchiectasis, and ILD (interstitial lung disease).  It had positive outcomes for all the patients in the study.

      Yeah, seems funny that no one I know has started laser acupuncture for themselves after looking at the results of the study.  But it certainly would make sense to do so considering the outcomes.  I have always said that I don’t care what it is that you do, if it helps…. awesome!  I don’t care if it’s laser therapy, drug therapy, Chinese herbs, Serrapeptase, doesn’t matter.  We are dealing with deadly diseases and we will take whatever we can to get better or just maintain our health.  As far as the study that we are doing for laser for IPF/lung fibrosis, just like the patients on Ofev or Esbriet, laser acupuncture could be factored in as well.

      So glad Betty is walking 100 meters more than she was after only 7 laser treatments.  Fantastic!

      Andy

    • #17540

      Hi @budhenry,

      Welcome again to the PF forums, and thank you for contributing the information below regarding laser therapy. You’re right, everyone is entitled to pursue options that they think might be effective for them and ultimately, it is their responsibility to investigate any potential scam out there targeting patients with IPF.

      It sounds like you’ve had a successful transplant, which I am thrilled for you and so glad you had this option. Some folks are not given this chance, and are seeking to find other options to manage their disease (not cure it), even if that means just lessening some of their symptoms. Please be respectful of a difference of opinion, and be cautious about your beliefs when posting about a topic on the forums. No one is claiming that this is FDA approved, you’re right, it isn’t but if someone finds it effective and they’re willing to pay for the treatment to see if it works, then they are entitled to do that barring any/all potential risks. Also, all FDA approved trials do have to start somewhere, perhaps this is a grassroots approach to getting enough data (evidence-based or experiential) for a larger clinic trial to be done on laser therapy for future FDA approval? I certainly don’t have the answers, and am not interested in arguing but I do need to ask that you, and everyone else, respect what others try in their desperation to live with this disease as long as possible. Sadly, we all know there is no cure.

      This platform seeks to support discussions about options for managing the disease, and simply learning to cope with it as well. No one is asking for Go Fund Me donations to help pay for their laser therapy; that behaviour would not be tolerated on the forums and shut down very quickly. As a result, I have removed the links in your post about scammers collecting money for their treatment, it is irrelevant here and not taking place on this forum. Please note that I also posted the exact same link you did regarding the worldwide clinical trials taking place for IPF, from the government site you also linked. We encourage folks to look there for current studies taking place, or that are in the clinical trial phase. Dr. Hall has stated that his collection of data pertaining to laser therapy is not for a clinical trial, it is mere data collection at this point to help with a study he is working on.

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts, they are valued but please be mindful that others are entitled to seek out whatever options they see fit to help them manage their disease.

      Warm regards,
      Charlene.

    • #17548
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @Charlene-Marshall

      Hi friend – I think I will email you any more ideas regarding the panel/forum and just up to this point there is no form yet just ideas to help create the form (panel/forum). So any ideas keep them coming.

      Just like to add that a business partner and I once created a client’s tremendous and valuable house file by setting up 2 whiteboards. The first day all of us (about 20or so) threw anything at the first board no matter how ridiculous it seemed. Day 2 we took those ideas and created 5 – 10 top points.  From these 2 boards the group “Teen Suicide Prevention” was created and in 18 months we had over 90,000 donors nationwide – long before the internet in the mid-eighties.

      We are at the first whiteboard stage and all ideas are welcome. – Steve

    • #17546
      Steve Dragoo
      Participant

      @budhenry

      Circuitous logic is what most skeptics use – well – because that’s all the thingies they’ve got.  haha haha, I also once heard an argument that some people were considered brainless because no one had ever seen their brain and no one could prove otherwise. But I see your point. No, I’m not digging at you (well maybe a little) or trying to insult your intelligence.

      Of course, IPF being as deadly as is it people will look for alternatives since western medicine is entrapped by big pharma and they, as we all know, only want to create customers.  Some would probably say similar comments about the group “The Truth about Cancer” because after all the CPA that runs it couldn’t possibly know anything about medicine and since he lost both of his parents to cancer, his grief has blinded him to reality. But wait – thousands have been saved – maybe it was the placebo effect.

      Places like the Philippines cannot afford medicine so they rely on old herbal remedies (Chinese and other) that have proven reliable for thousands of years. Did they start that way or was there a dark and sinister personality initially at work that fortuitously was healed by trying poisoned ideology that wasn’t the placebo effect? I don’t know it was before my time and that means I never say their brain and couldn’t prove they had one.

      Me? – I learned something long ago – reality is often stranger than fiction and when you or I start our circuitous logic from the wrong perspective, we almost always end at the wrong conclusion.  But who could blame us? After all, we’re just dying from a horrible disease and should accept that there is no help for us or so it seems.

      Steve

    • #17555

      Hi Steve,

      My pleasure, I do want the forums to remain a positive platform for everyone to share their thoughts on relevant topics pertaining to IPF, regardless of being (as you say): good, bad or indifferent. However, it must be done in respect of others, which you always are. The scientific data and evidence-based literature does have to start somewhere, as that collection takes time and people to voice how something impacted them. Maybe the “voices” Dr. Hall is collecting can be that start, who knows…

      Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, and trying out something that they suspect might work for them. Really, what other options do we have? Thanks for sharing, as always 🙂

      Charlene.

    • #17558

      That sounds great Steve, thanks for doing that! It might be a little easier for me to track via email than the forum thread, although I am glad enough folks are contributing to make part II of this discussion just as large. Really appreciate your efforts here, and please let me know if there is anything I can do to help in the meantime.

      Charlene.

    • #17561

      Hi @budhenry,

      Thanks for your reply.
      You are certainly welcome to your opinion on laser therapy being ineffective, but again I ask: you must be kind and respectful in your approach to discussing this topic, or your profile will be deleted. Unless you are a licensed and practicing medical doctor, your opinion countering the effects of laser do not trump those experiencing some gains with it. Nor, is it your place to tell folks it doesn’t work. We’re all just doing our best here in an effort to slowdown an otherwise deadly disease. No one is asking for money, no one is stating that laser therapy is statistically significant in improving or stopping fibrotic growth. We’re all just doing our best, and your comments, while welcomed because they are your opinions, are not kind and borderline disrespectful to others who are simply trying something they hope might help them.

      If you cannot change your approach to posting on this site (you don’t have to agree, we can be indifferent in our opinions), your profile will be removed.

      Thanks,
      Charlene.

    • #17572
      Barry T Wines
      Participant

      Hi Dr. Hall,

      I just finished my 3rd laser treatment. The doctor was reluctant to start me out at 5400 Jules so I think it was about 4500 or so. After today’s treatment he will reset the laser to 5400. Just wondering if there’s any time frame that I could tell if the treatments are working.

      Thanks

      BARRY

    • #17574
      Andrew Hall DC
      Participant

      Hi Barry,

      So glad to see you have gotten started.  It seems as though some patients see some results in as little as 2 or 3 treatments, others it takes much longer.  I think that chronicity has a lot to do with it.  There is a difference between ‘feeling improved’ and seeing objective changes as with monitoring your O2 levels.  I hear often that the patient feels more stamina, less coughing, and the like.  But often, like Jack Blum just posted, that he is measurably better on the treadmill while monitoring his O2 levels and pulse rate.

      Know that laser therapy is cumulative, the more you do the better you do.  This is not only true of lung issues but for musculoskeletal issues as well.  And the same can be said for say a very chronic knee problem, it will take longer than a more acute type problem, and I believe from observation that more late stage lung disease will often take longer to notice subjective changes, though even late stage patients seem to have a least a little improvement with oxygenation fairly quickly.  So, I would monitor your O2 levels at rest and see what happens.

      One of my big concerns is that even though we have heard from so many patients with results ranging from slight to dramatic, even with muculoskeletal conditions, we have seen so much success that success is just expected.  We still don’t understand why that is that a small minority of patients don’t respond.  Haven’t really seen it yet, but the same may be true for some lung patients, we now expect success but we just may have a failure pop up.  The problem with that of course is that these lung conditions are deadly, but you can still live with ‘tennis elbow’ or carpal tunnel syndrome.  I dread the time when someone really just doesn’t get better or arrest progression, and it could very well happen as with musculoskeletal conditions.

      Andy

    • #17586
      leontis teryazos
      Participant

      Dr. Hall,

      The study link for “Role of laser acupunture in chronic respiratory diseases” was in your March 4 post and was below. I read study and copied and pasted results for the group that took the laser treatments and as you can see it says baseline 6 MWD was 30.94 meters. This seems incredibly low distance as from research I have done people with late stage lung problems usually do in 150/250 meter range. Would appreciate if you can let me know what you think….

      BMI, spirometric data and 6 MWD for the study group baseline and after 10 days of laser therapy.

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