-
Laser Therapy Part III
-
Thank you for getting back to John, Terry — I am so appreciative of folks helping one another on this site, especially when I am away as I was this weekend. Very appreciative of you Terry 🙂
@john-marshall, did this answer the question you needed? Feel free to let us know if we can help by providing more information.
Cheers,
Charlene. -
Hi Charlene
Thanks for your reply to my post a week ago regarding the laser therapy study and the financial burden placed on IPF patients since insurance companies don’t cover the cost. I saw my doctor today and she said that normally where truly unbiased studies are conducted by doctors there is no charge to the patient for treatments. Although she had heard of laser treatments she didn’t seem to have an opinion either way regarding their effectiveness I’ll keep following this forum to see if any kind of meaning measurable results are reported as I do find the laser treatment therapy interesting.
I hope all is well with you and everyone else on these forums!
-
Hi Michael,
Great to hear from you as always, thanks for writing! I think your doctor is likely right about the treatments that are free of charge; usually this includes studies and clinical trials too. I think it is great news even that she, as a physician, had heard of laser therapy and didn’t automatically decline its effectiveness… sounds like a good start. Admittedly, laser isn’t for everyone but something I am keeping a “pulse” on by following the conversations in this forum too. We’re working on a way to see if we can produce quantitative, evidence-based results of the laser therapy although the idea is still in its infancy. Even if it helps someone make an informed decision, I consider that a bonus!
Thanks again for sharing and I hope things are going well with you also.
Charlene -
I’m curious to know what the pulmonologist are saying about cold laser therapy. So far I have not read anything. When I mentioned it to my doctor he actually seemed annoyed that I would even bring it up, his reply was if it’s not FDA-approved I’m not interested. Has anyone’s pulmonologist seeing the results so far of the use of the cold laser. Thank you Tom
-
Hi Thom,
What I have found is that the attitudes are all over the chart. A few of them are opposed to anything but strictly allopathic care, but the ones that really do some research or learn about think that it has good promise. Pulmonologists don’t have laser therapy as part of their study and most know nothing about it. What is interesting is that I know of 5 doctors and a Pharmacist that are all doing laser therapy for their IPF, but they have all done their homework…….
-
Hi Andy,
Great response for Thom, thanks for replying to him and I hope it helps a bit @thom. I’m not surprised about your physician’s reaction to laser therapy and almost seeming “annoyed” that it was brought up. This is very unfortunate, but I also understand the scope of what they’re working in (not to mention the amount of work Doctor’s have now a days) and wanting treatments to be grounded in literature or FDA-approved. Do I agree? Not really but I certainly understand where they’re coming from. What is unique about cold laser therapy from what I understand is that it is so new, there simply isn’t the research on it yet but I soon hope that will change. I am not endorsing it (I don’t do it myself yet either), just replying with a perspective that I can understand where your pulmonologist is coming from. I do wish more of them could talk to patients who are finding the laser therapy beneficial, as there are lots of people in this situation! Ultimately right now, the decision about whether or not to look into laser is uniquely up to the patient. Feel free to ask any more questions if you have them here, folks are so wonderful and willing to help.
Cheers,
Charlene.
-
-
-
my two pulmonologist ignored the laser results. If it is not drugs they are not interested and they can not wrap their head around that the laser may work. I have completed 12 weeks of laser treatments and 26 treatments and now I am doing one treatment a week. I have had two pulmonary function tests by two different pulmonologists at week 8 and week 12 of doing laser and both showed the same results. IMPROVEMENT! I was in steady decline last year, now I have sustained results, so I am thrilled to have improvement. Saturation’s have also improved by 2 points. Sad but with laser the reality is there is no big money to be made by the drug company’s who develop the drugs, also the laser is not approved by FDA for lung treatment.
-
Thanks for sharing John!
I am trying to think whether or not I should copy/paste, or ask you to duplicate your reply to Thom into the Laser Therapy Results thread as you’ve outlined some positive results: improvement! What do you think?Charlene.
-
John ( @caneelbay1 )
Wondering if you let us know some specifics about your Lung Fuction Test improvements. Whatever you are comfortable with letting us know.
-
-
Hello @drandyhall.
As you know this discussion about Laser Therapy started while I was on holiday in New Zealand and with your help I was able to find a chiropractic doctor near my home in England and have started treatments since returning. So far I have had 4 treatments using a protocol provided by K Laser. The frequencies are marginally different to those suggested by yourself. They are 660, 800, 905 & 970nm, with a pulse frequency time frame of 45sec at 10W. I receive 4 minutes each side front and back (total 16 mins). Please can you tell me if this is acceptible, or should I request a change?
I saw my pulmonologist last Friday and sadly my test results showed a slight deterioration, although I feel pretty much the same. I will see him again in 4 months. The test measurements will give me a baseline for the laser treatment, as I have had only 4 treatments before the tests. I am pleased to say that my pulmonologist is quite open to alternative therapies and said he would read the copy of your paper, which I gave him. His main concern was that it was safe and I wouldn’t be harmed by the radiation.
Thanks for all your help and maybe others will be interested in your reply.
-
Hi David,
Glad you made it home safe from New Zealand, I’m sure it was wonderful to spend time with your son.
The 660, 800, 905, and 970nm are actually the wavelengths that the diodes are at. And they are great, will work remarkably well. The nice thing is that there are 4 of them and covers all the bases as far as what they are best suited for. Depending on the actual Hz or frequncies that are being used, 16 total minutes could be very acceptable. If you are being treated at CW, (or continuous wave), you are probably getting more joules per treatment than what you really need.
It’s great that you just had a PFT, even though the slight deterioration of course is not good, but you are right as that it will give you a good baseline for checking again after a course of laser treatment in 4 months. I’m glad your pulmonologist is open to the idea of laser therapy. They do seem more open in England and Europe than in the US, but again, most of them in the US don’t know anything about laser, where in England and Europe laser therapy has been ‘mainstream’ for so many problems for decades before being introduced in the US, so more pulmonologists are familiar with it. Of course it’s safe, and it’s just different wavelengths of light as opposed to some type of ‘radiation’ as in X-ray or Gamma radiation.
Again David, so glad you are able to start laser, and will look forward to hearing some reports from you as treatment continues!
-
Welcome home David! I’m hoping the long flight back was uneventful for you?
Glad you were able to spend that time with your son, and also connect with a laser therapy provider as I know this was something you were interested in seeking out.Great to have a baseline for the laser, although sorry the PFT showed a slight decline. Do keep us posted on future test results, and even how you’re feeling as you continue with the laser. I’m glad Dr. Hall responded to you below as well, hope you found comfort in his reply.
Take care,
Charlene.
-
-
I to am watching my lung function tests, last year I had steady decline with the last test November 13 2018. I wonder how much I had declined from November 13 to start of laser January 17. When I did the lung function test March 7 2019 I had improvement and sustained improvement on April 5. Now I hope for the same results in October.
-
Hi John,
I sure hope you see positive results in October as well, that is great news! Do you get a copy of your PFT reports at all? I wonder if you might share with us the differences in your FEV1 from January to March tests? Not a problem if you don’t know/want to share the exact number, it just would be so nice seeing some quantitative improvement for folks in our new Laser Therapy Results thread: https://pulmonaryfibrosisnews.com/forums/forums/topic/laser-therapy-results/
Hoping you continue to feel well John – thanks as always for connecting!
Charlene. -
Hi Charlene,
Yes, we had a lovely time with our New Zealand Family. It was so nice to stay for two full months to really get to know our two lovely granddaughters. We are hoping to go again in a years time, God Willing. I’m happy to say that the long flights back were uneventful and I didn’t feel any ill effects, even though my O2 levels were in the 80s. I’m not on oxygen, but my body seems to be able to function normally at reduced levels. Maybe it’s due to the Mitochondrial therapy supplements I take. The journey was helped by a nights stopover in a hotel in Seoul, compliments of Korean Air. Also, flighing Business Class was a big help. This is expensive , but we found a special offer.
I’m excited to have started Laser Therapy and very positive about the results thanks to Andy, John Styles @johnstyles and the others who have reported.
I do hope thinks are OK with you. You will be getting excited about your upcoming visit to Hawaii. A holiday does us all good!
-
Hi David,
Thanks for writing back, and so glad your time in New Zealand was lovely with your family. Being alongside our family members can really do a lot of good for our soul and the beauty of NZ I am sure just makes it that much better. Really glad your flight was uneventful too! Was your flight delayed at all, is that why you spent the night compliments of Korean Air?
Is the laser therapy continuing to go well for you?
I am doing pretty well also, thank you for asking. This week has been a bit chaotic as I ended up getting a new vehicle sooner than I expected so I’ve been busy coordinating that and then I am going away with some friends this weekend so we’re leaving at 4 am tomorrow morning. Just a really busy week but a “slower” day today which will be nice to give my system some rest before a busy weekend ahead. Once home from this mini-vacay, I will be starting to plan Hawaii so that will be fun. Thanks kindly for asking how I am 🙂
Take care and I hope you continue to find success with laser.
Charlene. -
Hi Charlene,
It’s always nice to hear from you and particularly that you are doing OK. You seem to have a really busy life considering that you are working. Long may it continue!
No, the flight wasn’t delayed. Everything uneventful and on time in the respect. The complimentary night in a 5* hotel in Seoul was just part of the back to back flight deal from Korean Air. We actually flew business class with a special deal. This was a big help and I would highly recommend if for long haul flights if funds allow.
Ive had just 6 laser therapy treatments, over 2 weeks. My cough has reduced and I seem to have more energy, although this my be due to going to the gym 3 times a week and walking 3 miles a day, other days. O2 levels may also be marginally higher, but the only comparable measures ar my resting O2. Its early days yet.
For me, life is very full; particularly with visits to the gym and the laser treatments. Also, visiting friends and church activities are very important. As you will gather, I’m not much incapacitated and the only time I’m aware that I have IPF is walking uphill.
Take care of yourself Charlene. Thanks for all you do for the forum.
-
Hi David,
Thanks so much for your kind words! I just returned home from a mini-vacation this weekend and think I pushed myself a little too hard with the length of driving I did today — I crossed into the next province. It’ll take me a few days to recover from this trip I think. I hope the ability to be busy and participate in all the things I love also continues for a long time, although I do feel it slowly getting harder and harder…
Really glad the flight was uneventful and that you were able to enjoy a night in a 5* hotel en route home. This would allow you to rest quite a bit better I would imagine, as opposed to sleeping on the plane 🙂
Awesome to hear you feel like you’re getting some benefit from the laser treatments despite it being early, that is good news. I hope that continues for you as I know the days are still early yet. Best wishes for continued health and not really noticing IPF other than uphill walking. Kudos to you for being so active, I know that is difficult with this disease.
Take good care and thanks again for your kind words.
Charlene.-
Hi Charlene, Is there a way to print out the text of the communications on laser experience.
Thanks, George
-
Hi George ( @georgeconnell )
Great question – let me ask our tech team and get back to you! I’m not sure, but maybe there is a way to transfer all the information onto a word document easily enough, as opposed to trying to print it via these threads which might become difficult to read on a print out. Let me ask and see what I can find out for you 🙂
Charlene.
-
-
-
@let666:
I realize I am late in replying to your 3/14 post, when you wrote …”and in the 2014 Egyptian study they went from 30 meters to 93 meters. This laser acupuncture with low level laser. With such impressive results I am wondering if the laser acupuncture method may be more effective than what we are doing now. Doing both would be too time consuming and costly. Please let me know what you think about this as I imagine when you started your own laser therapy 4 yrs ago you probably did not know about these laser acupuncture studies.”
I just started my treatments two-weeks ago, and noticed the following on my chiropractors website: “The treatment method is referred to by several names such as Laser Acupuncture, Low-Level Laser Therapy, Soft Laser, Low Power Laser Therapy, and Bio-stimulation.” Perhaps this was already mentioned in this thread, but in case it wasn’t I thought I should share this.
Also, I was wondering if anyone knows what medication the Egyptian study participants were taking?
Thank you,
Lorraine
-
The Egyptian study was for a short duration,most patients only 2 weeks but what was impressive was that everyone improved. Dr Andy Hall has been using the laser on himself for 4 1/2 years and a few people have been using it for several years and now a lot of us are doing laser. I for one think there is good results with the laser. No decline is the result we are all hoping for and that takes time to confirm. Which is better the acupuncture points or over the lungs? That is a good question. Now I have had a PFT after starting laser and had improvement on all FEV after 2 years of decline and have seen some improved energy and saturation so I am staying with Andy protocol but I wonder sometimes about doing the acupuncture points with the laser.
-
Thank you John! After learning about k-laser therapy from you and others on the PF forum, I started treatment on April 3rd and have had 6 treatments thus far.
Also, I have reached out to Dr. Hall, many times and as you know he is very kind and generous with his time!!! THANK YOU DR. HALL.
I expect my next PFT to occur on May 10th and another CT scan soon after and will post an update. And because of you, Dr. Hall and others, I too am dedicated to ongoing treatment.
Ok, given that Laser Acupuncture and LLLT is one in the same …. I have another question, aren’t the lung acupuncture points being treated simultaneously?
-
@caneelbay1
Hey John,
I have not read that whole study so thanks for the summary. when I first started doing laser research because of y0u I found a German doctor that had the color spectrum laser and used all colors individually on patients hooked to what would be like an IV attachment to the vein. So he used the different colors as they supposedly help different functions of the body.
The doctor I use for laser treatments does not have manual settings so we had to modify what Andy uses. My doc’s laser modulates, uses 12 watts, and a little over 11,000 joules which Andy thinks is fine, I do too. So we do about 7.5 minutes on each side. I know the following is subjective but today unloading groceries I made two quick trips carrying all bags and 7 gallons of water. Just a few weeks ago I had to stop after each load and rest again before unpacking them. The doctor took back my portable O2 bottles after a 6-minute walk test a couple of months ago.
Serrapeptase, B vitamin complex, and definitely K-laser are responsible – especially laser. Doing a 3rd CT scan next week and looking forward to hearing the results since I leave for the Philippines next month and have not found a laser over there yet.
Stay well… Steve
-
Hi Steve
Good to hear the Laser is working well for you.
Dr Halls protocol on his website suggests 10 watts, 5400 joules per dose, 5 minutes front and 5 minutes back.
You mention your Doc’s Laser uses 12 watts and a little over 11000 joules – and you are treated 7 1/2 minutes back and 7 1/2 front. Does that mean you are receiving a total dose of 11,000 joules?
Thanks. Peter.
-
Hi Steve,
By 7 1/2 min each side do you mean font and back or left and right lung area.
-
-
@petergoodwin
Hi Peter – yes a total of 11000 but another difference is the modulation it has too. – Steve
-
Hi Steve
Thanks. I always understood the number of joules administered represented the ‘dose per session’. So at 11,000 that’s twice what I receive as recommended by Dr Halls protocol. Wish I understood a little more. I have another session tomorrow so I’ll ask my chiropractor.
-
Hi Peter ( @petergoodwin) I am a new member and this is officially my first post. It’s the first time I’ve heard about laser treatment to improve one’s quality of life with IPF; however reading through the posts, I still don’t know who or where to go to possibly connect with a health practitioner in order to learn more about the treatment.
Can you help me?
-
Hello there,
Welcome to the PF forums – we’re glad you’re here 🙂
This is a very popular topic, and one that is discussed a lot on this platform. I am sure many members here would be happy to help you obtain some information about laser therapy, here are a few folks you can likely reach out to for more information: @steve-dragoo, @let666, @caneelbay1 and @drandyhall. I am also happy to help you as much as I can, although I haven’t yet embarked on my own laser therapy journey yet. Feel free to reach out to anyone regarding your questions.Warm regards,
Charlene. -
@ahoughton
Howdy,
Dr, Hall has a protocol typically used for the specific class 4 K-laser and he can help you find local help if there is some available in your area. I started the laser treatment about two months ago and have been experiencing more energy and endurance but I also do several things in a daily regimen and try to hit the gym 3X weekly.
Success – Steve
-
Hi A Houghton (What’s the A stand for?)
Hope I can help.
Where abouts are you located?
Peter
-
Hi,
I would be happy to help you find a laser therapy provider near you. Unfortunately, right now the site that I go to find providers is down. Just provide your town and zip code. To get on the fast track as far as learning about laser therapy, go to my website and click on IPF and you will see an article on therapeutic lasers and how it all works.
Go to: summit-chiropractic.com
I will be back in touch tomorrow afternoon.
Blessings,
Dr Andy Hall
-
Dr. Hall, I found a person in Hays,ks. that does cold Laser theraphy. I do not know if this is what you are talking about. I would be interesed in trying it. The name of the place is Stephens Chiropractic and wellness. It is in Hays,ks. They have a website. I would appreaciate it if you could check it out and let me know if this laser theraphy would work. Thanks Linda
-
Hi Linda ( @lwaldschmidt )
The local doctor with a cold laser has a Class III laser. It doesn’t have the power to get through the chest wall and into the lungs. I’ve done some searching for you and there are 2 providers, both some distance from Hays. In Salina, Salina Chiropractic, 785-823-1060. In Colby, Tubbs Chiropractic, 785-462-7236.
-
-
Hi Leontis – yes front and back. The doctor is on continuous movement on each side and I can hear when the laser shifts to a different modulation. Best – Steve
-
Hi Peter, so grateful for your help. The “A” stands for my husband, Arthur. I am Catherine, his wife and caretaker….and research detective. I will sign off my posts/inquiries as Catherine.
We live in New Hampshire.
Catherine
-
Hi Catherine
First of all you’ll need a chiropractor who uses a Laser. Go to:
https://www.k-laser.com/medical-professionals/find-a-provider
Enter your town and it will show providers near you on the map. Scroll down the page and it will also give you a list.
Unfortunately most Laser providers won’t know about Laser for Pulmonary Fibrosis so you’ll have to point them to Dr Hall’s website. It’s all explained on http://summit-chiropractic.com/ipf/
Dr Hall is very helpful and and if necessary will help you find a provider and guide them through the process as he has suggested in his post above.
Good luck with the Laser therapy, I know Dr Hall will help find a suitable provider nearby and guide you through the process.
Peter
-
@drandyhall
You the man Andy…
-
Steve,
The rumors are true!!!! The internet extends all the way to the Philippines!
Been wondering how your flight went. Also wondering how it felt to finally have your wife in your arms after all this time. We want a full report!
Blessings Steve!
Andy
-
-
-
Hi Lorraine, for the time the chiropractor spends over the lungs with the laser it should be no extra charge to do a little time over the acupuncture area. After reading your post I sent my chiropractor a e-mail with the Egyptian study attached because it shows the acupuncture sites for the lungs and asked if he could do a little time over the acupuncture sites. I was doing laser 5 minutes at 9 watts over each lung for 20 minutes but now I am doing 3 minutes over each lung at 9 watts so I should be able to add the acupuncture sites at no charge. I was amazed to see improvement on my PFT because the previous PFT was done November around the 3 and I started laser Jan 17 and had the follow up PFT done around March 3 with the same tech who did my PFT tests last year. With steady decline on my PFT tests I would have been happy with a small decline but to see improvement is amazing. I also have a weird result, I walk daily, prior to laser last year I was doing a mile and using portable oxygen and had lost my increased saturation’s while walking outside, the saturation’s actually increase while walking outside. About two weeks after starting laser these increased saturation’s came back and I was walking a 1 1/2 miles. Then about week 6 after starting laser I lost the increased saturation’s while walking outside, I returned to where I was last year needing portable oxygen to walk. These increased saturation’s returned about 4 days ago. No idea why. When I get up I walk 40 minutes inside and saturation’s drop to 88 from 91 or 92. Later in the day when I do a mile walk they start at 91 or 92 then go up to 97, 96 and as low as 90. No idea whats going on but I will take every improvement I can and I hope they stay this time. Special thanks to Charlene that lets us post our results.
-
Hi Peter – It can be confusing. The 11000 is total for the session and Andy recommended it and I think modulation may affect that but don’t know. The protocol is not an exact science as I see it. Best – Steve
-
Hi John:
Thank you for your reply and insight about your experiences and adjustments to your ongoing treatment.
Also, I appreciated you telling me that you sent your chiropractor an e-mail with the Egyptian study attached because it shows the acupuncture sites for the lungs and asked if he could do a little time over the acupuncture sites. I will do the same! And yes, any improvement is great news, and I hope it continues and remains steady. And I hoping for the same!
And yes, special thanks to Charlene for letting us post on this topic and for preserving the history of LT Part I & II. I think I have read this trilogy several times, since it is so important.
-
Happy to have done so Lorraine! I continue to watch the Laser Therapy III topic thread too and once/if it becomes too large for people to follow I’ll “close” this one down and start a new one. I think since so many people are interested in laser therapy, it is important to ensure the information doesn’t get lost and is accessible to all. I keep a close eye on this topic, and so glad to see everyone responding to one another in such a kind and helpful manner. This forum really is filled with such wonderful members! Take good care 🙂
Charlene.
-
-
Hi John ( @caneelbay1 )
Do you have a document you can post or email to me that shows acupuncture sites for lungs. I definitely would like to show this ASAP to the chiropracter doing the laser treatments.
-
I just saw this, Peter. Thank you so much for the information. You are very kind.
Catherine
-
Hello Catherine, ( @ahoughton )
Were you able to get the information you needed? If not, provide me your city and zip code and I will help you find a laser therapy provider near you for your husband.
Dr Andy Hall
-
-
@drandyhall,
Actually, we use the smoke and blanket method to send morse code (Native American style) to the central Internet hub in Manila – that’s why it takes so long – the latency is 2 days…
Fixed pancake breakfast Sunday, rapidly getting over jet lag, bought a big bottle of super glue that she and I will never be a part again – until the end. We went out for a walk this morning – about a mile and stopped at one of my favorite bakeries for breakfast with some killer salmon, leftover pancakes and lots and lots of fruit and veggies. Everything else is classified…
Blessed… – Steve
-
-
Hi everyone. Thanks to everyone who has contributed, especially Dr Hall. I’ve been following the discussion and have now had 7 k laser treatments. I’ll post the results after 10 treatments. Meanwhile, can someone please post a link to the Egyptian Study as I would like to read it. I’m wondering whether to include the acupuncture points in my treatment schedule. It would also be interesting to hear @drandyhall view on this. Thanks in anticipation.
-
@davidaswain , the Egyptian laser study is in google. google ” low level laser therapy in chronic obstructive lung disease” it should come up. The research was done for a short period but done on about 200 patients, all had improvement.
-
Hi John ( @caneelbay1 ),
Do you have a document you can email to me as an attachment that shows acupuncture sites for lungs. I definitely would like to show this ASAP to the chiropracter doing the laser treatments. My email is [email protected] and would much appreciate getting this from you.
-
-
Hello
Just wondering if there is anyone on here suffering from IPF, on laser therapy.
Thank you.
-
Hi @kiran,
Yes, most of the people contributing to this topic thread have IPF and are actively being treated with laser therapy. Take a thorough read through everyone’s comments on how it seems to be helpful to them, and hopefully it gives you more information to make a good decision about whether or not you want to pursue it. Totally an individualistic choice 🙂
Feel free to be in touch if you have any other questions. Please note: this platform is NOT endorsing laser therapy as an effective treatment for IPF. We’re just trying to provide an unbiased spot for folks to talk freely about it and whether or not it is helping them. BioNews does not endorse laser therapy, but happy to hear people talk about it freely on this site.
Take care,
Charlene.
-
-
Thanks John. The only study I can find is for 30 participants with COPD (not IPF) and uses 5-30W lasers. So, not only is this a different disease, but the treatment is completely different to the class IV 10watt laser treatment being discussed in this column. Maybe I haven’t found the Study you refer to which you said included 200 participants. Anyway, thanks for your help, but I wonder if those Egyptian studies are relevant to us, who suffer from IPF.
-
Hi David, the Egyptian laser study starts out with aprox 30 people with copd, then further into the study they used the laser on 90 children with asthma and the study mentions Mohamed and others who used on on 31 people with different diseases including interstitial lung disease which is a form of IPF. I do not think the Egyptian study is good for much more then it is amazing that everyone improved, they only did the study for 10 days and a lower level laser. As for me I think the main person is Dr Hall who has used the class 4 laser for 4 1/2 years and before I started using the laser Dr Hall had several people using the laser. I do not think we should expect much more then no more progression of the disease, at least that is what I am hoping for. I have personally seen how this disease sneaks up on myself as it progresses robbing me of simple functions. My next PFT is in October and I am hoping for stable results as was my last PFT in March. I sent the Egyptian study to my chiropractor who e mailed back and said he could hit some acupuncture points. I guess no guarantee on what will be the outcome. Here is hoping.
-
Hi David: I hope this helps and works…
http://www.ejbronchology.eg.net/
https://chiro.org/acupuncture/ABSTRACTS/Acupuncture_Points. (Page 4)
-
@davidaswain ,
This is better … (scroll down to # 4 and click to view lung points)
Log in to reply.